if by communitarian you mean,让某一特定的团体 来定义什么是正义。just giving over to a particular community the definition of justice.我想Now, what I would like to suggest在这两种 正义与善行 的关系里，that of these two different ways of linking justice to the good,第一种是 不足的。the first is insufficient.因为 第一种方式 使正义成为了 社会惯例的产物。Because the first leaves justice the creature of convention.它没有给我们 充足的道德对策It doesn't give us enough moral resources去回应那些 南方种族隔离主义者to respond to those southern segregationists他们祈求 保持他们的生活方式，他们的传统，who invoke their way of life, their traditions,他们做事的方式。their way of doing things.然而，如果 正义以 非相对性的方式与善行相连，But if justice is bound up with the good in a non-relativist way,这就有个很大的挑战，需要回答一个很重要的问题。there is a big challenge, a big question to answer.我们怎样才能 定义 善？How can we reason about the good?人们对 善 持有不同概念，我们怎么看待这个事实？What about the fact that people hold different conceptions of the good?关于主要社会制度的目的，人们有不同的看法Different ideas about the purposes of key social institutions.怎样的善行 才是值得尊重和认可的，Different ideas about what social goods and human goods人们有不同的看法are worthy of honor and recognition.我们活在一个多元社会里，人们对善有争议。We live in a pluralist society, people disagree about the good.这也是激励人们 尝试找到 不依赖于 任何特定目的、意义的That’s one of the incentives to try to find principles of justice and rights正义和权力的准则 的其中一个原因that don’t depend on any particular ends or purposes or goods.那么，是否有某种方法 来定义善呢？So is there a way to reason about the good?在解决这个问题之前，Before addressing that question,我想 先解决一个 稍微简单一点的问题：I want to address a slightly easier question.当我们讨论到正义，是否有必要、是否不可避免的Is it necessary, is it unavoidable, when arguing about justice，就要涉及到 善？to argue about the good?我对这个问题的回答是：是的，是不可避免的，is yes, it’s unavoidable. And my answer to that question是必要的。It's necessary.今天接下来的时间，我想开始....So for the remainder of today, I want to take up...我想尝试 进一步来思考 这个观点I want to try to advance that claim,这个观点即 当我们讨论正义的时候that reasoning about the good, about purposes, and ends,我们不可避免的 要涉及到 善、意义和目的is an unavoidable feature of arguing about justice,这是必要的。it’s necessary.让我们来看看 我是否可以 确定这一点Let me see if I can establish that.为此，我想和大家展开一场讨论，关于同性婚姻。And for that I’d like for us to begin a discussion of same sex marriage.当前，同性婚姻引发和涉及了Now, same sex marriage draws on, implicates,许多 一直在争议的观点，deeply contested and controversial ideas,道德上的，宗教上的。morally and religiously.在这个问题上，我们十分想And so there’s a powerful incentive接受一种 正义或权利的观点to embrace a conception of justice or of rights而不需要 整个社会 以这样或那样的方式来that doesn’t require the society as a whole to pass judgment, one way or another,评价 这些备受争议的道德和宗教问题。on those hotly contested moral and religious questions.例如 对同性恋的道德容许度 的问题，About the moral permissibility of homosexuality.关于 把婚姻的目的 作为一个社会惯例。About the proper ends of marriage as a social institution.所以，很显然，如果能解决这个问题，So, clearly, if there’s an incentive to resolve this question,而不牵涉到 把社会作为一个整体to define people’s rights in a way that doesn’t require the society as a whole来解答 那些道德的和宗教的争论，to sort out those moral and religious disputes那将会是十分的吸引人。that would be very attractive.现在 我想做的是，So what I would like to do now is to see,在 同性婚姻 这个例子中using the same sex marriage case,是否可能 在思考whether it’s possible to detach one’s use对同性恋的道德容许度about the moral permissibility of homosexuality and about以及 婚姻的意义、目的 的时候，the purpose, the end of marriage,把上述问题和下面的问题分开来看：detach those questions from the question of国家是否应当 承认同性婚姻。whether the state should recognize same sex marriage or not.我们的讨论开始了。So let's begin.我想 先听听I would like to begin by hearing the arguments of those那些认为 同性婚姻不应当存在who believe that there should be no same sex marriage国家应该只承认 男人与女人之间的婚姻。but that the state should only recognize marriage between a man and a woman.有谁发言的吗？我找到两个了Do I have volunteers? I had two.我曾经问过两个人，There were two people I asked,他们已经在我们网上的博客上，发表了他们的观点。people who had voiced their views already on the justice blog.Mark Loff 和Ryan McCaffrey，你们在哪里？Mark Loff and Ryan McCaffrey where are you?好的，Mark。 那么Ryan在哪儿？Okay, Mark. And where is Ryan?好吧，让我们先听听Mark。Alright, let’s go first to Mark.对于性的意义 和 婚姻的意义，I have sort of a theological understanding of我有神学方面的理解。the purpose of sex and the purpose of marriage.我认为，对于像我这种， 既是基督教徒又是天主教徒 的人来说，And I think that for people like myself, who are a a Christian and also a Catholic,性的意义：第一，有生殖的作用，the purpose of sex is, one, for its procreative uses,第二，让男女之间 在婚姻制度里 相互结合。and two, for a unifying purpose between a man and a woman within the institution of marriage.你认为婚姻的目的是...You have a certain conception of the purpose or the telos...- Yeah.与生殖相联系在一起的...of human sexuality, which is bound up with procreation.是的Right.以及 使得男女结合。是的As well as union. - Yeah.作为一种社会传统，婚姻的本质与目标And the essence of marriage, the purpose of marriage as a social institution就是实现 这个目的is to give expression to that telos去尊崇这个目的——婚姻的目的即繁衍and to honor that purpose, namely, the procreative purpose of marriage.我是否 把你的观点概括出来了？是的Is that a fair summary of your view? - Yeah.Ryan在哪？请说。Where is Ryan? Go ahead.你是否同意马克的理由？Do you agree more or less with Mark’s reasons?是的，我同意。Yes, I agree.我认为，理想的婚姻是包含生殖的，I think that the ideal of marriage involves procreation.当然，我也觉得同性恋 同居 也没有什么问题，And it’s fine that, homosexuals would go off and cohabitate with each other但政府没有责任 去鼓励大家这样去做but the government doesn’t have a responsibility to encourage that.好的，政府不应该 承认同性恋婚姻All right, so the government should not encourage来鼓励同性恋行为。homosexual behavior by conferring the recognition of marriage.如果把同性恋婚姻 视为非法，当然是不对的，但也不需要去鼓励大家这么做。Yeah, it would be wrong to outlaw it but encouraging it is not necessary.有人想回应吗？Who has a reply?好。Yes.Hannah？Hannah?我想问 Mark一个问题。I just like to ask a question to Mark.如果你与一个女人结婚，Let’s say you got married to a woman,你们两人婚前 并没有发生过性行为，you did not have sex with her before marriage,但结婚后，你发现and then when you became married it became evident that你们不能生育。you’re an infertile couple.那你是否认为，如果你们两人做爱，却无法繁衍后代的话，Do you think that it should illegal for you to engage in sex你们的婚姻还合法吗？if children will not result from that act?是的，我认为这是道德的，这也是为什么我认为婚姻的目的有两种。Yeah, I think that it is moral and that’s why I gave the two-fold purpose.比方说，一个女人..So like a woman, say...两个年纪都比较大的人结婚，I think older couples can get married,一个已经过了更年期someone... a woman who’s beyond...没有生育能力 的女人she has already had menopause and who can’t have a child,那样的两性关系because I think that sex has these...其目的已经超出了生殖。It has purposes beyond procreation.尽管我讨厌粗俗无礼，但我想问 你是否手淫过？I hate to be uncouth but have you ever engaged in masturbation?你不一定要回答You don’t have to answer that.好Right, make your...我想回应一下。I’d like to respond to that.我们整个学期 都进展的很顺利Wait. We’ve done pretty well over a whole semester我们深入讨论了一些and we’re doing pretty well now dealing with在其它大学里，大多数的学生都不会讨论的问题。questions that most people think can’t even be discussed to any university setttingHannah，你的这个观点很有力and, Hannah, you’ve got, you have a powerful point.你可以把它 用一般化的论点 陈述出来，Make that point as a general argument rather than,而不是 以疑问句的形式 表达。Rather than as an interrogative.好的，请说Okay. - But make the point.你提出的 原则是什么？What’s the principle that you’re appealing?你脑中的想法是什么？What’s the argument you have in mind?好的，圣经上......请用第三人称代指。Alrightt. Well, biblically...- Put it in the third person.好的。Yeah, okay. - Rather than...不要使用第二人称 这样表达。...Rather than in a second person. Make the argument.圣经上指出，手淫是不被允许的Okay. Biblically, masturbation or onanism, is not permissible因为 手淫等于是在 把种子撒在地上because it’s spilling your seed on the earth而不会生出孩子。when it’s not going to result in the birth of a child.你说，性如果不产生后代But what I’m saying is, you’re saying that sex,或者 不能强化 婚姻的纽带作用there’s something wrong with sex if it doesn’t produce children就是有问题的。 是的。or reinforce the marriage bond. - Right.那你怎么可以说But then how can you say that there’s something wrong,手淫是可以被允许的行为，因为很明显，that masturbation is permissible, if masturbation, obviously,手淫不能产生孩子is not going to create a child?我认为，婚姻是社会的一种习俗I think marriage is society’s way to create a separate institution而我们把它当作 是一种美德来坚守。where they say this is what we hold as a virtue.每天我们都会犯错误，Yes, every day we fall short and people fall short人类在很多方面都会有不足，in so many different other ways,但我想，即便你犯下小错，but I think that if you personally fall short,你有一些道德上的问题 （我们都会有）and some morals fear, as we all do,