守住她后，我再也不会拔出我的剑。Save in her defense, I will draw my sword no more. ”Dan，这是对 你所谓的忠诚原则 真正的考验，Now here's a real test, Dan, for your principle of loyalty.因为这里有战争的起因，Because here is the cause of the war against,不仅仅要是拯救联邦，而且有反对奴隶制。not only to save the union but against slavery.而Lee 要为弗吉尼亚作战，And Lee is going to fight for Virginia即使他不赞同南方州 脱离联邦的想法。even though he doesn't share the desire of the southern states to secede.现在，社群主义者会说，这里有值得大家钦佩的地方Now the communitarian would say there is something admirable in that.不管这个决定 最终是否正确，Whether or not the decision was ultimately right,这里有令人钦佩之处。there's something admirable.而且，社群主义者会说，我们甚至无法弄清，RinaAnd the communitarian would say we can't even make sense, Rina,我们无法弄清we can't make senseLee的两难困境是否是，一种道德的两难困境。of Lee's dilemma as a moral dilemma除非我们承认，从Lee的叙述中，他说理解的忠诚unless we acknowledge that the claim of loyalty arising from his sense of narrative of who he is是一种道德，而不仅仅是情绪、情感的推动。is a moral, not just sentimental, emotional tug.好吧，谁愿意回应一下 Dan所说的忠诚，All right, who would like to respond to Dan's loyalty,还有 Billy Bulger的忠诚，或Robert Lee对弗吉尼亚的忠诚？to Billy Bulger's loyalty or to Robert E. Lee's loyalty to Virginia?你怎么看，Julia？What do you say Julia?我想这是一些经典的例子Okay, well I think that these are some classic examples涉及了 各种团体的影响of multiple spheres of influence.你在选择 你的家庭和国家之间，有互相冲突And that you have conflicting communities that your family and your country.我想，这也是为什么选择性地履行义务，是十分重要的原因之一I think that's one reason why the idea of choice in your obligation is so important因为除此外，你怎么去解决这个问题？because how else can you resolve this?如果你负有道德上的义务，而又没有其他办法 摆脱这个困境If you're morally obligated and there's no way out of this你需要同时对两个社群 负有忠诚。need for loyalty to the both communities,你进入了困境，什么也做不了。you're trapped, there's nothing you can do.你必须做出一个选择。You have to make a choice.而我认为，要想根据某些东西，来做出你的决定And I think that being able to choose based on other characteristics,除了 仅仅主观地认为，你属于某个团体更为重要以外，than merely the arbitrary fact that you're a member of this community is important,你觉得还有依据什么呢？我猜，剩下的只有随机选择otherwise it's left to, I guess, randomness.Julia，这里不是说 ，Dan 或者Billy Bulger或Robert E. Lee，是否做出了选择Well, Julia, the issue isn't whether Dan makes a choice, or Billy Bulger or Robert E. Lee,他们当然做了选择。of course they make a choice.问题是，他们的决定是基于什么原则The question is on what grounds, on what principle should they choose?社群主义者不否认，这里需要做出选择The communitarian doesn't deny that there is choice to be made.问题是，选择什么，基于什么理由？The question is which choice,on what grounds忠诚是否应该....and should loyalty, as such, wait...Andre，现在你想发言，好的，你想说什么?Andre now you want to, all right, go ahead. What do you say?我们注意到有一件事，这三个例子中Well one of the things we've noticed in the three examples is that所有人都选择了 更接近自己的团体，the people of all chosen the most immediate community of which they're a part.更本地化的团体The more local one.而我认为要对此说一下。And I think there's something to be said for that.它不是随机的。It's not just random.我的意思是，这里似乎并不存在着冲突。I mean, there doesn't seem to be a conflict因为他们知道，哪一个团体对他们更重要。because they know which one is more important.他们的家庭高于 Ec10，And it's their family over the Ec10 Class.他们的州高于他们的国家，Their state over their country,而他们的家庭要高于 马萨诸塞州集体。and their family over the Commonwealth on Massachusetts.所以，关于什么是更重要的，我们是有答案的So I think that's the answer to which is more important.你认为，更本地的、更具体的团体Do you think that the local, the more particular,总是道德上更重要的，Andre？is always the weightier morally, Andre?我的意思是，在这三个案例中看上去有这种趋势。Well I mean there's seems to be a trend in the three cases.我同意这点。I would agree with that.我认为，我们中的多数会同意And I think most of us would agree that你的家庭也许优先于美国，。your family takes precedence over the United States perhaps.这个就是你为什么同意Dan？Which is why you go with Dan?对室友忠诚，要胜过 忠于 Ec10班和真话？Loyalty to the roommate over Ec10 and the truth?是的。Yeah, exactly.我愿意，因为......I would because it...我的意思是，说真话。I mean truth telling, not the truth of Ec10.是的，-好的，我们明白了。Yes. - Alright, so we understand.好的。Yes.但在关于家庭这个方面But on the same example in terms of family,在内战期间，存在着 兄弟在战争中相互较量的例子you had cases in the civil war where brother was pitted against brother on both sides of the war,他们选择国家，而不是家庭。where they chose country instead of family.所以，我想同样的，更多时候So I think the exact same, more shows,不同的人，会有不同的选择that different people have different means of making these choices这里没有一套标准，或一套道德and that there is no one set of values, or one set of morality是社群主义者 所坚守的that communitarians can stick to.而我个人来看，那也是社群主义者最大的麻烦，And personally, I think that's the biggest problem with communitarians,他们没有一套标准的道德义务。that we don't have one set of standard moral obligations.告诉我你的名字。 - SamanthaAnd tell me your name. - Samantha.所以Samantha，你赞同Patrick。So Samantha, you agree with Patrick.Patrick 在另一天的观点是Patrick's point the other day也许...that there may be...假如我们认为，我们的义务是由所在的社群、我们的身份来决定的If we allow obligations to be defined by community, identification or membership,他们间也许会冲突，他们也许是一致的，也许会互相对抗。they may conflict, they may overlap, they may compete.这里没有明确的原则。And there is no clear principle.Andre说，这里有一个明确的原则---最具体的Andre says here's a clear principle,the most particular.而另一天，坐在那里的Nichola。Nichola在哪儿？The other day, Nichola who was sitting over here, where's Nichola?Nichola说是最普遍的。Said that most universal.Samantha，你说，You're saying, Samantha,社群的大小，不能成为决定性的道德因素。the scale of the community as such can't be the decisive moral factor.所以，这里还需要有 另一些道德的判断标准。So there has to be some other moral judgment.好吧，让我们首先...All right, let's first... Let's let our defe...爱国社群主义的批评者们，our critics of communal patriotism,让我们表达对他们的感激，谢谢他们。let's express our appreciation and thank them谢谢他们站在这里，回应这些争论。for their having stood up and responded to these arguments.现在，我们转而讨论，我们刚才所听到的 关于公正的多种立场Let's turn to the implications for justice of the positions that we've heard discussed here.那些反对把 对社群的忠诚，作为一种独立的道德判断标准，他们的担忧是One of the worries underlying these multiple objections to the idea of loyalty or membership as having independent moral weight这种做法，不能找出 普遍适用的公正原则is that it seems to argue that there is no way of finding principles of justice因为我们都生活在 某个特定的社群中，我们对什么是美好生活，看法不一样。that are detached from conceptions of the good life as they may be lived in any particular community.假设 社群主义者的争辩是对的。Supposed the communitarian argument is right.假设，权利优先于何谓好的观念不被支持。Suppose the priority of the right over the good can't be sustained.假设，在决定什么是公正的时候，不可避免地要受到，人们对什么是好的 这一观念的影响Suppose instead, that justice and rights unavoidably are bound up with conceptions of the good.那是否意味，公正仅仅Does that mean that justice is simply是一种大家约定俗成的产物。a creature of convention,是一种特定时间、特定团体里所 流行的价值判断of the values that happen to prevail in any given community at any given time?批评社群主义者中，One of the writings we have among the communitarian criticsMichael Walzer 写了一篇文章is by Michael Walzer.他这样描述 正义He draws the implications of justice this way.”正义与社会意义有关。“Justice is relative to social meanings.一个特定社会是公正的，只要这个社会里的人们A given society is just if its substantive life is lived in a certain way,都忠实于 大家的共识in a way that is faithful to the shared understandings of the members.所以，Walzer的叙述似乎证实了 一种担忧，So Walzer's account seems to bear out the worry that如果我们不能找到 独立的关于公正的原则，if we can't find independent principles of justice,独立于 任何特定群体中流行的 对什么是好的判断independent that is, from conceptions of the good that prevail in any given community,因为如果那样的话，我们就会简单地 把公平当成是that we're simply left with justice being a matter of fidelity or faithfulness对 这个社会、某个时间里所流行的共识、价值、习俗， 的一种信仰或者忠诚to the shared understandings or values or conventions that prevail in any given society at any given time.但 那是一种思考正义的 适当方式吗？But is that an adequate way of thinking about justice?让我们看一个短片Well, let's take a look at a short clip取自纪录片《Eyes on the Prize》from the documentary "Eyes on the Prize."它溯回到1950年代的美国南方。It goes back in the 1950s in the south.一些美国南方人Here are some situated American Southerners他们信仰传统，对种族隔离制度都有共识who believed in the tradition and the shared understandings of segregation.听听他们 关于忠诚和传统的争辩Listen to the arguments they make about loyalty and tradition看看它们 是否让你改变刚才的观点And see if they don't make you uneasy把公平看作是忠于 特定社会的共识和传统about tying arguments about justice to the shared understandings or traditions that prevail in any given society at the moment.让我们放这个短片吧。Let's run the clip.“这片土地 由两个不同外表的文化 组成，'This land is composed of two different appearances.一个白色人种的文化和一个有色人种的文化。A white culture and a colored culture.在我的一生中，我和他们紧密地生活在一起And I've lived close to them all my life.而现在我被告知，我们虐待了他们。But I'm told now that we've mistreated them我们必须做出改变。and that we must change.而这些改变 快过我的预期。And these changes are coming faster than I expected.我被要求，要用这种新的思维方式 来做出决定And I'm required to make decisions on the basis of a new way of thinking而这是困难的。and it's difficult.对我来说是困难的，对所有南方人是困难的。”It's difficult for me, it's difficult for all southerners.'那么这里你们看了，求助于传统的自述。Well there you have it, narrative selves,situated selves invoking tradition.这是否向我们展现了Doesn't that show us that公正，不能跟 特定时间、特定社会中，所流行的、形成共识的，大家对何谓好的观念 联系在一起。justice can't be tied to the shared understandings of goods that prevail in any given community at any given time?或者是否有办法，能挽救这个例子中的说法。Or is there a way of rescuing that claim from this example?思考一下这个问题。下次我们再讨论它。Think about that question and we'll return to it next time.欢迎在本字幕的基础上，再次修改。 为大家提供更好的翻译版本。中英文双语字幕下载：射手网 shooter.cn英文字幕：http://forum-network.orgxiaolai