我不认为，我们给了社会一张 空白的道德支票。I don’t think we give the community a blank moral check in that sense.我认为，只有当我们放弃了我们的公民责任是，才能说给 社会开出了一张空白的道德支票。I think we only give it a blank moral check when we abdicate our sense of civic responsibility当我们说，爱国主义是一张空白的道德支票，此时 这一辩论就变得必要了。and when we say that the debate does matter因为 爱国主义 成了是一种罪恶。because patriotism is a vice.我认为 爱国主义是重要的，因为它赋予我们 一种社群感I think that patriotism is important because it gives us a sense of community,一种我们能够 参与社群事务的、共同的公民美德。a sense of common civic virtue that we can engage in the issues.即使你不同意 政府做事的方式Even if you don’t agree with the way the government is acting,你可以在厌恨其做事方式的同时，爱你的国家。you can still love your country and hate the way it’s acting.此外我还认为，正是因为出于这种对于国家的爱，And I think because out of that love of county,你才可以和别人辩论，you can debate with other people你可以在在 尊重别人观点的同时，仍然参与到和他们的辩论中去。and have respect for their views but still engage them in debate.如果你说 爱国主义是一种罪恶，你就放弃了和他们辩论If you just say that, patriotism is a vice, you drop out of that debate你就是把位置让给了那些 原教旨主义者们，and you cede the ground to people who are more fundamentalist,那些观点更加激进的人，那些可能会威胁到社群的人。who have a stronger view and who may coerce the community.与此相反，我们应该 让社群中的其他成员Instead we should engage the other members of the community参与到 共同的道德基础上来。on that same moral ground.我们听到了来自AJ 和Raul的观点，Now this, what we hear from AJ and Raul.他们的爱国观是 多元的、有争议的、带有批判性思维的。That’s very pluralistic argumentative critically minded patriotism.正如我们听到 Ike和这里对爱国主义的批评者们 的意见Whereas what we hear from Ike and the critics of patriotism我们所担心的是，如果真的将爱国的义务 视为一种社群的方式，here is the worry that to take patriotic obligation in a communal way, seriously,这种爱国的忠诚就 不允许我们可以 在各种观念、行为做法中 任意地选择。involves the kind of loyalty that doesn’t let us just pick and choose among the beliefs or actions or practices of our country.如果我们所谈论的忠诚what’s left of loyalty if we’re all talking about,AJ 和RaulAJ and Raul,如果我们所说的忠诚，只是 对正义原则的忠诚if all we’re talking about is loyalty to principles of justice而这些正义原则，可能蕴含在我们的社群里that may happen to be embodied in our community or not as the case may be.如果没有的话，我们就拒绝 这种忠诚。And if not then we can reject its course.我不知道.. 我觉得我已经替你们回答了。I don’t know, I sort of given a reply.我跑题了，抱歉 谁想发言？I got carried away. I’m sorry. Who would like...?Julia 你说吧Go ahead Julia.我想，你需要定义一下，爱国主义 指的是什么Yeah I think that patriotism you need to define what that is.听起来，你认为我们对爱国主义的定义 是一个比较不宽松的定义It sounds like, you would normally think that we are given a more weak definition here of patriotism amongst us你所理解的爱国主义，仅仅是要求有 国民参与其中but almost sounds like your definition is merely to have some sort civic involvement in debating within your society.而我认为，爱国主义的基础涉及到 道德 和 美德and I think that that kind of undermines maybe some of the moral worth of patriotism as a virtue as well.我认为，如果你同意 对爱国主义定义更严格一点，I think if you can consent to a stronger form of patriotism if you want要把 道德义务 也定义进去that’s a stronger, I guess, moral obligation than even what you’re suggesting.为了更深入这个争论，我们要看看 来自社群主义者的辩护者的一个例子What we really need to sharpen the issue is an example from the defenders of communitarianism of a case在这个例子中，忠诚可以与 正义的普遍原则 相抗衡，忠诚甚至要胜过正义的原则。where loyalty can actually compete with and possibly outway universal principles of justice.我们的确需要 检验一下这两者，不是吗？That’s the test they really need to meet, isn’t it?好的。这就是你们这一派 需要通过的检验All right. So that’s the test you need to meet.或者，你们之中，有谁想觉得，作为社群成员和维持社群团结的义务Or, any among you who would like to defend obligations of membership or solidarity是独立于 那些公正的原则independent of ones that happened to embody just principles.谁能举出这样的例子Who has an example of a kind of loyalty对国家的忠诚，要先于对个人的尊重？that can and should compete with universal moral claim respect for persons?说吧Go ahead.例如， 我正参加一个经济学的测验，Yeah, if I were working on an [economics] problem set, for example我发现我的室友 正在作弊。对于他而言，这是一件坏事and I saw that my roommate was cheating, that might be a bad thing for him to do但我不会告发他。—— 你不会告发他？I wouldn’t turn him in. - You would not turn him in?我不会告发他。因为我认为 我这样做是对的I wouldn’t turn him in and I think that I would argue that’s the right thing to do因为 我对他有责任because of my obligation to him.这也许是错的。但我还是会那样做It may be wrong but that’s what I would do而且，我认为多数人都会这么做and, I think that’s what most people would do as well.好的。这是个很好的考验All right, that’s... Now there’s a fair test.他并没有 用社群名义，用一些关于正义的普遍原则。（slip out无意地说出）He’s not slipping out by saying he’s invoking, in the name of community, some universal principles of justice.你叫什么名字？What's your name?站在那。你叫什么名字？Stay there. What's your name?DanIt’s Dan.好的，Dan。那么大家怎么看Dan的例子？Dan. So what do people think about Dan’s case?对忠诚的伦理而言，这是个艰难的考验。不是吗？That’s a harder case for the ethic of loyalty, isn't it?但也是个很真实的考验But a truer test.多数人同意Dan的说法？How many agree with Dan?那么忠诚.....Dan所说的忠诚 还挺有市场So loyalty... Dan loyalty has its part, if that's it.多少人不同意Dan呢？How many disagree with Dan?Peggy.Peggy.我同意Dan的做法。但是我认为，那只是我们所做的一个选择Oh well I agree with Dan but I agree that it’s a choice that we make不一定是对的，或是错的but it’s not necessarily right or wrong.我同意 我那么做是做了一个错误的选择I’m agreeing that I’m going to make the wrong choice因为我选择了 忠于我的室友because I’m going to choose my roommate.但是我也承认，那样的选择在道德上是不对的But I also recognize that that choice isn’t morally right.你还是在解释着....Dan的忠诚So you’re still translating, even Dan’s loyalty,你是说，那样做是一种选择，you're saying well that's a matter of choice,但，什么才是正确的？but what's the right thing to do?多数人都举手说Most people put up their hands sayingDan站在他的室友一边 不告发他，是正确的。Dan would be right to stand by his roommate and not turn him in.好，说吧Yes, go ahead.我也认为，作为一个室友，你了解他的一些内部信息Also I think as a roommate you have insider information而你不想把别人的内部信息，拿来作为把柄and that might not be something you want to use.因为这样做不是什么公道That might be something unfair to hold against.你花了很长的时间与室友相处，You're spending that much time with the roommate,很明显，你会了解他的一些信息obviously you're going to learn things about him我不认为为了一个更大的社群（整个学期），去揭发他 是公正的。and I don't think it's fair to reveal that to a greater community.但这样做是忠诚，Vojtech。But it's loyalty, Vojtech.你赞同Dan的做法，认为忠诚是道德的关键地方？You agree with Dan that loyalty is the ethic at stake here?是的。Absolutely.你没有责任说出真相，去揭发作弊的人？You don't have a duty to tell the truth,to report someone who cheated?我觉得没有。因为在这里，你了解许多他的信息，而你利用了这个优势来揭发他。Not if you've been advantage into getting that kind of information.在结束 对爱国主义批评之前，Before our critics of patriotism leave,我要给你们另一个说法，一个更众所周知的例子，I want to give you another version,a more public example of what,我预想，这会是 Dan的一个两难之困境I guess we should call it Dan's dilemma.我想看看，大家对此的反应。Dan's dilemma of loyalty and I want to get the reaction of people to this.此事发生在马萨诸塞，在好几年前。This came up a few years ago in Massachusetts.有谁知道 这个人是谁吗?Does anyone know who this man is?Billy Bulger，对了。Billy Bulger是谁？Billy Bulger that's right. Who is Billy Bulger?他担任了 许多年的马萨诸塞州 参议院主席。He was president of the Massachusetts State Senate for many years.是马萨诸塞州 最有权力的政治人物之一。One of the most powerful politicians in Massachusetts后来，他成了 马萨诸塞大学的校长and then he became president of the Univeristy of Massachusetts.你们听说过，关于Billy Bulger的一个故事吗？Now Billy Bulger, did you hear the story about him that bears on Dan's dilemma?Billy Bulger有一个兄弟叫Whitey BulgerBilly Bulger has a brother named Whitey Bulger而这就是Whitey Bulger。and this is Whitey Bulger.他的兄弟 是联邦调查局的首席通缉犯之一。His brother Whitey is on the FBI's most wanted list他被宣称是，波士顿一个臭名昭著的黑帮头目。alleged to be a notorious gang leader in Boston,他涉及数起谋杀案，而现在他成了名逃犯。responsible for many murders and now a fugitive from justice.但当联邦检察官，他们传召Billy Bulger，But when the US attorney... They called Billy Bulger,这位马萨诸塞州大学的校长，then the president of the Univeristy of Massachusetts,在大陪审团和通缉令面前，before the grand jury and wanted information却拒绝说出 他的兄弟、这名逃犯on the whereabouts of his brother, this fugitive,在什么地方。and he refused to give it.联邦检察官说：来澄清一下吧，Bulger 先生，US attorney said, "Just to be clear Mr. Bulger,你觉得对你兄弟的忠诚you feel more loyalty to your brother than to the people要比对马萨诸塞人民的忠诚 更重要吗?of the commonwealth of Massachusetts?"而以下是Bulger的说法And here's what Billy Bulger said,“我从没那样想过"I never thought of it that way但我确实需要对我的兄弟忠诚，我在乎他。but I do have a loyalty to my brother, I care about him.我希望，我永远不会帮助 任何反对他的人。I hope that I'm never helpful to anyone against him.我没有义务去帮助，那些想抓我兄弟的人。”I don't have an obligation to help anyone catch my brother."Dan，你会同意他的做法。Dan you would agree.有多少人会同意Billy Bulger的立场？How many would agree with the position of Billy Bulger?让我再给出另一个例子，然后让批评者们回应。Let me give one other example and then we'll let the critics reply,我们把这些人，称为反对忠诚的批评者。the critics of loyalty as we'll describe it.这里有一个更重大的例子，来自美国历史上的一个人物，Here's an even more fateful example from a figure in American history,Robert E. LeeRobert E. Lee.Robert E. Lee.在南北战争前夕，Now Robert E. Lee on the eve of the civil war,是联邦军队的军官。was an officer of the Union Army.他反对脱离联邦。事实上，他被当成是叛徒。He opposed secession, in fact,regarded as treason.当战争逼近，When war loomed,林肯提出让Lee 全面指挥联邦军队。Lincoln offered Lee to be the commanding general of the Union Army,而Lee 拒绝了。and Lee refused.在一封给儿子们的信中，Lee描述了 他为什么会拒绝。And he described in a letter to his sons why he refused.他写道, "以我对联邦所有的挚爱"“With all my devotion to the Union, ”he wrote,我也无法作出决定I have not been able to make up my mind去反对我的亲友、我的孩子，我的家。"to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home.在这里，他指的是弗吉尼亚。By which he meant Virginia.”如果联邦瓦解了，我将返回我出生的州。“If the union is dissolved I shall return to my native state去和我的人民 分担不幸。and share the miseries of my people.