something like that.好吧，让我再推你把，Julia。All right, let me push you a little bit on that, Julia.飓风Katrina的受害者正急需帮助The victims of Hurricane Katrina are in desperate need of help.你会说，他们是不值得Would you say that they don't deserve help that would come从联邦政府的税收得到救助吗？from the federal government through taxation?好吧，这是一个较难回答的问题。Okay, that's a difficult question.我认为，在这种情况下他们需要帮助，但这些帮助不是他们本来应得的I think this is a case where they need help, not deserve it, but I think,如果你有一定程度的需要，来维持你的生活again, if you had a certain level of requirements to meet sustenance,你需要帮助，例如，如果你没有足够的粮食you're gonna need help, like, if you don't have food或没有地方住，这情况叫需要or a place to live, that's a case of need.因此，需要是一回事，应得是另一回事。So need is one thing and deserve is another.没错。Exactly.好的。谁想回应？All right. Who would like to reply?是。Yes.让我们回到你刚才所说的第一点Going back to the first point that you made about the个人的财产权property rights of individual.产权是由政府提出和执行的The property rights are established and enforced by the government,我们选取了代表which is a democratic government, and we have representatives来实现这些权利。to enforce those rights.如果你生活在一个遵循这些规则的社会里If you live in a society that operates under those rules,那么，就应该由政府来决定then it should be up to the government to decide how这些资源、税收怎么分配those resources[inaudible]taxation are distributed because it is因为它是经过政府的同意。through the consent of the government.如果你不同意，你可以选择不生活If you disagree with it, you don't have to live在这样的社会里in that society where that operates.好，告诉我你的名字。All right, good, so, and tell me your name.Raul.Raul.Raul指出，其实，Raul引出了第二点Raul is pointing out, actually, Raul is invoking point number two.如果税收是经过被统治者的同意If the taxation is by the consent of the governed,它就不是强迫的。它是合理的。it's not coerced. It's legitimate.比尔盖茨和乔丹是美国公民。Bill Gates and Michael Jordan are citizens of the United States.他们投票选出了国会。他们和与大家一样They get to vote for congress. They get to vote their投票决定了这些政策policy convictions just like everybody else.谁想继续？John吗？Who would like to take that one on? John?基本上，在这种情况下自由主义者是在反对Basically, what the libertarians are objecting to in this case is中间的80%决定了最上层的10%the middle 80 percent deciding what the top ten percent而这样做是为了底层的10%are doing for the bottom ten percent.等一等，John。多数决定少数Wait, wait, wait, John. Majority.你不相信民主？Don't you believe in democracy?但在某个点上Well, right, but at some point --难道你不相信，我是指，你说的80%Don't you believe in, I mean, you say 80 percent,10%。多数人的规则是什么？10 percent majority. Majority rule is what?有多数人决定The majority.没错，但 -Exactly, but --在一个民主国家里。你是支持民主的，是吧？In a democracy. Aren't you for democracy?是的，我支持民主的，但Yes, I'm for democracy, but等一下。Hang on, hang on, hang on.民主统治和暴民统治不是同一件事情。Democracy and mob rule aren't the same thing.暴民统治？Mob rule?暴民统治，正是。Mob rule, exactly.在一个开放的社会，你可以In an open society you have a recourse to address that通过你选出来的代表来解决它through your representatives.而如果大多数人都同意的And if the majority of the consent of those who are governed你却不同意doesn't agree with you, then you know,如果你生活在这样的民主社会里，你就得you're choosing to live in a society and you have to operate服从多数人做出的决定under what the majority the society concludes.好的，Alex谈到了民主。All right, Alex, on democracy.那怎么办？What about that?事实上，从我那五十万分之一选出来的The fact that I have one, you know, five hundred thousandth一个议会代表所表决的of the vote for one representative in congress is not the same thing和作为我个人来决定怎么使用我的财产权as my having the ability to decide for myself how这两者不是同一件事to use my property rights.我就像是杯水车薪，你知道I'm a drop in the bucket and, you know, well --我可能会在投票中输掉You might lose the vote.没错。Exactly.他们可能会 -And they might take --我的意思是，And I will. I mean,我并不能决定，我是否应该I don't have the decision right now of whether or not纳税to pay taxes.如果我不想交税，我就得坐牢，或者把我驱逐出国If I don't, I get locked in jail or they tell me to get out of the country.不过，Alex，让我举一个关于民主的小例子。But, Alex, Alex, let me make a small case for democracy.看看你会怎么说And see what you would say.我们生活在一个民主的社会，Why can't you, we live in a democratic society with有言论自由。freedom of speech.你为什么不走上竞选的讲台，去说服你的同胞Why can't you take to the Hustings, persuade your fellow citizens说纳税是不公正的，然后试着去取得大多数人的同意呢？that taxation is unjust and try to get a majority?我不认为，我们得说服2.8亿人I don't think that people should be, should have to仅仅为了行使我们的权利convince 280 million others simply in order to exercise来保护自己的所有权。their own rights, in order to not have their self ownership violated.我认为，我们没必要得说服2.8亿人I think people should be able to do that without having才能做到这一点to convince 280 million people.这是否意味着，你反对民主？Does that mean you are against democracy as a whole?我 - 没有。I -- no.我相信在一个非常有限的民主里I just believe in a very limited form of democracy用宪法来限制whereby we have a constitution that severely limits the scope哪些地方需要由民主决定。of what decisions can be made democratically.好，所以你说，民主是好的All right, so you're saying that democracy is fine但涉及基本权利的地方，可以不用民主决定except where fundamental rights are involved.是。Yes.我认为，你可能会赢And I think you could win.如果你站上竞选的讲台。让我对你刚才所说的If you're going on the Hustings, let me add one element补充一点to the argument you might make.你可以说，放下经济的辩论，撇开税收You can say put aside the economic debates, taxation.假设个人的宗教信仰自由受到了干涉Suppose the individual right to religious liberty were那么，Alex，在竞选台上at stake, then, Alex, you could say, on the Hustings.当然，大家也认同，我们不应该投票决定Surely, you would all agree that we shouldn't put the right to个人的自由individual liberty up to a vote.是啊，正是这样，这就是为什么我们需要Yeah, that's exactly right, and that's why we have a修正宪法constitutional amendments.以及为什么修改宪法这么难and why do we make it so hard to amend our constitution.所以，你会说，私有财产权So you would say that the right to private property,乔丹想保住他自己所赚取的财富the right of Michael Jordan to keep all the money he makes至少避免在收入再分配中流失at least to protect it from redistribution is the same和拥有言论自由，宗教信仰自由kind of right with the same kind of weight as the right争取大多数人的利益to freedom of speech, the right to religious liberty,是同等的重要rights that should trump what the majority wants.对。Absolutely.我们之所以有言论自由的权利，是因为The reason why we have a right to free speech is because我们有权利支配自己，表达我们的意见we have a right to own ourselves, to exercise our voice通过我们选择的任何方式in any way that we choose.好，好。All right, good.好的，所以我们All right, so there we—好的，谁想回应这个关于民主的论点All right, who would like to respond to that argument好吧，在那里。站起来。about democracy being- Okay, up there. Stand up.我认为，宗教和经济不是同一回事。I think comparing religion economics it's not the same thing.比尔盖茨之所以能赚这么多钱，是因为The reason why Bill Gates is able to make so much money is because我们生活在一个经济和社会稳定的社会里。we live in an economically and socially stable society.如果政府不通过税收，为那10%的穷人提供救济And if the government didn't provide for the poor as ten percent那么我们就需要更多的钱as you say through taxation, then we would need more money需要更多警察来预防犯罪。所以，不管怎样for police to prevent crime and so, either way,这样就需要征收更多的税来维持there would be more taxes taken away to provide你们刚才所提到的，政府有必要提供的公众服务what you guys call the necessary things that the government provides.你叫什么名字？What's your name?安娜。Anna.安娜，让我问你这个。Anna, let me ask you this.宗教信仰自由的基本权利和Why is the fundamental right to religious liberty different右边的Alex所说的私有财产权、from the right Alex asserts as a fundamental right保住我的收入的基本权利，两者有什么不同？to private property and to keep what I earn?两者有何分别？What's the difference between the two?因为你不会，Because you wouldn't have-如果社会不安定，你就很难赚钱You wouldn't be able to make money, you wouldn't be able to own property也就无法拥有财产if there wasn't that socially, like, if society wasn't stable,这和信仰自由的权利完全不同and that's completely different from religion.信仰是个人的事情，你可以That's like something personal, something that you can practice